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No Pain No Gain! -  UK taxation Discussion
UK taxation 

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No Pain No Gain! (UK taxation)

leviathan

Member Name: leviathan

Product:

UK taxation

Date: 16/05/01 (67 review reads)
Rating:

Advantages: With better management and more openess we get better public services.

Disadvantages: Paying tax hurts.

Tax. Must be one of the most hated words in the English language, and I doubt anyone likes paying tax. Whether it is direct tax on income, Council Tax, Value Added Tax, or the indirect duties/taxes that are levied on everything from petrol to perfume. Yet whether one is a prince, or a pauper, the government, via the taxman, will take his/her cut of every penny one has to spend, or save.

Nor is taxation a modern curse. Ancient records show that in 7th century England, when the country was divided into ‘regiones’ a rough form of revenue collection known as the ‘feorm’ was devised.
Directed by the Kings reeves, the families within the various ‘regiones’ had to feed the King and his court, as well as entertain them, keep his fortified walls in good order and provide guides whenever the court crossed their lands. Each ‘family’ being assessed and ‘taxed’, albeit in bread, honey and ale, according to wealth.

In essence the Magna Carta was little more than Tax Return Form, as the largest portion of this famous document is devoted to how revenues were to be raised by the various Baronies that acted as the ‘government’ of the day. And later Edward 1st turned property taxation into an art form.
Indeed over time various Monarchs, Peers, Religious and Political leaders have found many ingenious ways to tax the populace. (The Window Tax for one) With most being deeply unpopular, and many being very unfair.


However I think we have now come to believe that paying tax is a necessary evil, if one wishes to live in a reasonably well ordered, civilized society.

But do we believe we are getting value for money?

Do we feel our present taxation system is fair and equitable?

Are we over-taxed?

My answer to the first question. Is no. I personally do not think we are getting value for money at present. There is too much bureaucracy in the U
K. Far more than in the EU, regardless of what the euro-skeptics would have us believe.
Many government ministries, which cost the taxpayer millions to run, are over-staffed, and not especially efficient. MAFF being one, the MOD being another.
Vast sums have been wasted on computer systems that have either never worked, or have turned an old-fashioned, but working system into a chaotic shambles (Pensions debacle and the IBM Air Traffic Control computer system for example).
Whilst other monopoly sums are disbursed on the thousands of Quango’s and Policy Committee’s our elected representatives seem to feel are a vital component (makes you wonder why we bother to vote if those elected can’t make decisions) to governing.

I also personally feel we were robbed, when the previous Conservative government sold off what were essentially taxpayers companies. And I detest the way we taxpayers are bailing out Railtrack, whilst the executives and shareholders of that now privately owned company are still receiving their dividends. To me, that feels like being mugged twice.

Frankly the list of waste is endless, and I suppose when one thinks in billions, a few hundred million wasted is regarded as being neither here nor there. Which is why I also believe it is time, we the people, are provided with an annual balance sheet.
Surely we have the right to know, down to the final penny, what comes in, and what goes out of the Treasury. Which is after all OUR bank.

And my answer to the second question is also NO!
Our tax system is not entirely fair, or equitable. As any good accountant can confirm.

For the majority, confined to the PAYE system, there are precious few loopholes one can use to avoid income tax. Ditto the small self-employed tradesman.
Nor can we avoid paying VAT which is added to the cost price of those goods or services we purchase. And unless one is prepared to risk a heft fine or a jail sente
nce for smuggling, we cannot avoid paying Duty on petrol, diesel, oil, tobacco, wine, beers, spirits or perfume.
However if one is super rich, and can afford a good accountant or two, and a second, or third home abroad, the tax avoidance loopholes are large enough to drive a tanker through. (The boast of one infamous multi-billionaire being that he and his myriad of companies pays little or no tax in any of the countries from which he operates. One of those countries being the UK.)
So in my view, if we have a ‘global’ economy, we should also have the means ‘globally’ to block up these loopholes, and squeeze these greedy so and so’s till they squeal.


In giving my answer to question three, I shall probably be heaping coals on my own head, and expect a few ribald comments will follow. But I do not think we are over-taxed.
Fact is. If we are to achieve the kind of society in the UK the majority aspires to, we will have to pay more tax, not less.

In the US where the words Welfare and Public Service are regarded as dirty words, they only spend 30% of the GDP on public services.
Britain currently spends 39%. Whilst Italy spends 41% and Sweden a whopping 56%.
Only Greece, Turkey, and Eire currently spend less. Although Eire will be spending 40% in budget years 2002/3.

It seems our European partners do not object to paying higher taxes, in order to secure better public services. And as ours are in pretty poor shape, thanks to being starved of adequate resources for years, and poorly managed, we are in danger of becoming the poor man of Europe public service wise.

So if we want a better education for our children. Top class health care. A first rate public transport system. More police on the beat. Decent pensions, and sickness benefits etc.
We had better get used to the idea of paying for them, and stop trying to do everything on the cheap.







Summary:

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(16 members total)

MHWake%2FBiffa%2Fclumsy1974%2Fkfingleton%2Fjanharper%2Fgeorge_lazenby%2F

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Overall rating: Very useful

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Last comments:
clumsy1974

- 26/05/01

I dont think I would mind paying a few pence more tax, and would be appauld to think I could pay less, I dont seem to pay much tax now, and in fact most of my deductions are for perks such as gym membership. Mr Hauge you can stick you tax cuts where Anne Widdicombe would'nt dare look!
Bilbo+Baggins

- 21/05/01

Good opinion on essential taxation. The more the better as long as those rich enough are burdened with them more than I!
kfingleton

- 17/05/01

Well laid out and well argued, but then I didn't need convincing anyway as my review shows.

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